A medical doctor, an architect, and a financial journalist share their experiences & perspectives on home education

3RD Homeschool ALUMNI PANEL
Saint kosmas CONFERENCE
California
NOVEMBER 2018

Interviewer:

Welcome to the Homeschool Alumni Panel, our last session of this year's conference. In this third installment of the Alumni Panel series, we're speaking with three Orthodox professionals who were homeschooled. One of our goals is to show that homeschooling is not a barrier for people seeking a professional career. However, we also want to make it clear that we strongly feel that a professional career is just one of many successful homeschool outcomes. Some graduates choose to attend trade school, to start their own business, to marry, to start a family, or to serve the Church full-time. No one path is right for every person, and we support giving all our children a solid formation at home that prepares them for whatever path they choose to take. 

Tonight we'll be speaking with Ruthanna (a medical doctor from Wisconsin), James (a financial journalist from California), and John (an architect from New York).

Interviewer (to the alumni panelists):

Thanks for being here, especially since you're not actively invested in this. It's really great that you took time off to be here. So, let's start with John.

1st Panelist: John, an architect from New York

Interviewer:

Can you tell us a little about yourself and your family?

John:

Sure. I'm the youngest of four. My oldest sister is married in New York and has four kids. And I have two middle siblings that are twin girls, so my dad was overjoyed when I was born. Born and raised in Buffalo, New York, I moved out to California last year. My sisters actually went to public school for the first couple of years. I think my oldest sister went to public school until 4th grade, and the twins went until 3rd grade, and then I just did kindergarten. From there, we started homeschooling. And the reason that we switched to homeschooling - the main reason - was because my dad's work had him traveling across the U.S., so by homeschooling, we were able to tag along with him. We used that as an opportunity. We said, "Well, if we homeschool, we can take our classroom with us," so to speak. As a lot of homeschoolers say, "The world is our classroom," but we took that to the next level.

Interviewer:

It sounds like that would have been incredible as a kid.

John:

Yes. It was a lot of fun. We would drive to national parks on the off-season, and there would be no one at the Grand Canyon. It was great.

JamES:

Did you have a trailer?

John:

No, no. We would camp. We had a giant tent, and we all fit into one tent.

James:

Awesome!

Interviewer:

But you didn't end up graduating from your homeschool, right? You went back to school in high school?

John:

Right. So, I went to public school for kindergarten, and then I was homeschooled from first grade until halfway through my junior year. Then I went to a private school for my last year and a half of high school. And the reason for that was—as part of our homeschooling “curriculum,” so to speak, our P.E. class/social interaction was sports. My sisters did gymnastics and I played soccer. I was constantly on soccer teams year-round, and by getting to know kids in sports—when you’re on the bench or when you’re talking after practice—everyone’s talking about what happened at school. And I thought, “I want to experience this, because I’m not going to experience it after I graduate, so I might as well do it now.” So, I went to a private school for my last year and a half, a private Catholic school. And that was actually a lot of fun—and shocking because I found it really, really easy. When you’re homeschooled, you end up with situations where you’re teaching yourself, essentially. Your parents can help you to an extent, and then there’s a point where you just know the rhythm of, “I’ve got a lesson; read the lesson; do the questions.”

James:

You learn the habits of it.

John:

Yes. You get the habits of it, and so the last couple of years of homeschooling I was teaching myself. So, when you transition from independent learning at home into a classroom environment where you have a teacher teaching it all to you, you realize, "This is so easy; this is great!" So, my time at high school enabled me to do other things as well, and I had more social interaction there, but social interaction was never really an issue. I know a lot of homeschoolers who do homeschooling groups, and that can definitely be a good thing in terms of the social interaction with kids your own age, but the main thing our family did for social interaction was the sports. But I was also very fortunate to have my cousins who lived not too far, who were also homeschooling, so instead of a homeschooling group, we got together with cousins. There was a total of nine of us cousins that would get together every now and then, and we'd do book reports and all sorts of things. That was our homeschooling group, but also family time, so it served a dual purpose.

Interviewer:

That's a gift. A lot of people don't even know their cousins.

John:

I know. You’re right.

Interviewer:

And your mom is a twin, right?

John:

Yes, my mom is a twin, and it was the family of her twin sister who lived close by and homeschooled.

Interviewer:

So, in transitioning from homeschooling to private high school, you’re saying the workload wasn't difficult. Was culture shock something you experienced?

John:

No. No, I actually felt really prepared. I got a comment from one of my teachers who taught Ancient Greek—he was a great guy—he came up to me during graduation, the graduation of my junior year, and he said, “You know, you walk with a purpose.” I said, “I do?” He said, “Yeah, you’re walking through the halls, and you’re very straight forward, and you know what you have to do, and you’re going to go do it, and you don’t let all of these kids be a distraction.” High school was definitely a good experience, actually, but I felt really prepared for it through the homeschooling.

Interviewer:

So, after high school, you transitioned to college?

John:

Yes, I ended up going to the community college for my first year. That was fine. Then I transferred to the University of Buffalo for Architecture, where I graduated with a master’s degree two years ago. One of the biggest positives I got out of homeschooling, in terms of my college career, and even at the private high school, was having an experience of learning things on my own. My mom or my dad would give me some direction on something; my mom would write out a schedule for the week, and I would just end up following that schedule. I really learned how I absorbed information by myself. In high school, you have teachers who are teaching it, and they’re making sure they give you all the needed information for that subject. But in college, you end up with professors who are going to do their lecture, and then say, “Alright, you need to go out and do some more research on this subject” or “you need to do these readings.” By having a background in homeschooling, I knew how to be an independent learner, and I knew how I absorbed that information the best. This was really beneficial because I had a leg up on any of my other classmates in terms of those projects where we had to go out and do research or whatever the other work was. I found it much easier than my classmates, because I already knew how to pick up the information and learn on my own. College... I didn’t think it was that difficult. I mean, there were difficult times obviously, but it wasn’t overbearing.

Interviewer:

And you decided to live at home through college?

John:

Yes. Actually, I love my family. I really do, and that was one of the reasons why I stayed at home. The other reason was that my goal was to graduate from college with the least amount of debt possible.

Interviewer:

That's a great goal!

John:

So, that’s why I ended up living at home during college, and it was really great because the school that I attended was about 15 minutes from my house, so it was just right down the road. It was great.

Interviewer:

And how was that? Living with your parents as an adult?

John:

Wonderful.

Interviewer:

It was wonderful?

John:

Wonderful! We never had any angst growing up. Yes, it was good. I got a home-cooked meal every day—Are you kidding?—it was great! As a college student, that’s living the dream right there!

Interviewer:

That’s so refreshing to hear because a lot of kids don’t have a strong connection with their parents. What you’re describing is actually the exception, I think. As a parent, if you hear that your kids like you when you’re done doing your parenting-thing with them, and they still like you. That’s...

John:

That's a win!

Interviewer:

Yes!! That's a major win! That's no small thing!

John:

Yes, my parents were really great when I was growing up. They were really encouraging with all the work that we were doing. For instance, my sisters made a couple of mission trips, and my parents were always really supportive of whatever they were doing. My parents were also very supportive of whatever degrees we chose. It wasn’t about money. It was about making sure you’re doing what you love to do.

Interviewer:

That’s great! When we were talking on the phone, you made an interesting comment. You said something to the effect of your role models were your parents—and not the kids around you—and that was homeschooling’s greatest gift to you.

John:

Yes! Definitely. It was. When you’re formed by your parents who have an interest in making sure that you have the right head on your shoulders, so to speak—and not formed by peers at school—it’s definitely beneficial. The school environments today put kids in a situation to be influenced by people who may not have the same standards as what a family would want for their child. But in homeschooling, your parents are there for you, and they’re going to love you no matter what, so they’re looking for your best interest.

Interviewer:

Do you think you knew all that as a kid? Or did it take you growing up a little bit?

John:

It definitely took me growing up. I was probably in college when I realized that what they gave me was really great, really amazing. Actually, I think I was in my first year at the university starting my architecture degree when I really realized what a gift it was because, at that point, I was already a year older than most of the freshmen. When I transferred into the architecture program at the University of Buffalo, I essentially lost a year. I had already been to community college for a year, but when I transferred—because I was going into a specific program—I essentially started as a freshman again, which wasn’t a big deal. All my units from the community college transferred, but as gen eds, electives, and things like that. But as a result, I ended up being around people who were all a year younger than I. It was like they were in 13th grade of high school. The maturity level was not quite there. I have only one friend who I stay in contact with from architecture school, and it’s not because I didn’t interact with people. We were in an architecture studio. You’re forced to interact with people because you end up with late nights, and you’re sitting at your desk and doing drawings, and so you have to interact with people. But there were just so few people there that really had enough sense to them that they didn’t go out and party every night. That was not my scene. I lived at home. It was a lot easier to just go, do school, and come home. I would say that my upbringing was the main reason why I didn’t develop relationships with people at school. I would think, “I’m not sure I want you in my life because I’m not sure this would be a healthy relationship.”

Interviewer:

Well, it’s good to see that and be able to draw some boundaries. A large number of teens fall away from their faith in the teen years and the college years. So, what kept you connected?

John:

My parents.

Interviewer:

And being home?

John:

Being home definitely helped. But growing up, there was always a strong foundation of faith. It was always, “We’re going to church on Sundays.” As a kid, you try to play sick sometime to get out of going to church, but they would say, “OK, we’re going anyway, and we’ll sit in the back.” We were involved in Sunday school. My mom was involved with the youth at church, directing the youth choir. My dad was a Sunday school teacher. We sung in the choir, helped with luncheons, anything at the church... We were always really a part of it. And it was also partially because of homeschooling that we were so available to help at the church. For things that happened during the week at church, none of my other peers were able to go because of school. But there was always a point of emphasis on faith and going to church. Homeschooling also made it really easy to participate in Holy Week and Pascha.

James:

Would that just get declared as spring break?

John:

Yes, basically. Holy week—no school for the whole week—sleep and go to church. It’s fantastic! That was a huge plus of being homeschooled. You get to go to all of the Church services. As long as you’re awake.

Interviewer:

And sometimes even if you’re not.

John:

Yep! We used to sleep in the pews as kids. Yes, even when we were tired, they would take us to church and say, “That’s OK, just sleep on the pews.” I remember sitting in the pews as a kid, reading little bible books and saint stories.

Interviewer:

So, last question: When the time comes, would you choose to homeschool your own kids?

John:

YES! 100%! No hesitation. With my future wife, I will say, “This is a big point here. We need to make sure we’re on the same page with this.” I will definitely homeschool my kids. I will find a way to make it work.

Interviewer:

It’s really encouraging to hear that.

John:

Yeah, there’s no question. I’ll find a way to make it work. So, absolutely. Yes.

Interviewer:

Great! Well, then you can come back to the conference and put your kids in the front row.

John:

Exactly! My kids will be here!

Interviewer:

Thank you, John. 

2nd Panelist: James, a financial journalist from California

Interviewer:

Alright, James, you're up. Tell us a little about yourself, your family, your job.

JAMES:

Great! So, I’m the middle of seven children. I have three older brothers and three younger sisters. We grew up just outside of San Jose, and then moved out in the country near Morgan Hill.

Where I work now is an investment advising company based out of San Mateo, where I primarily write for them. It’s sort of a financial journalism position. We monitor current events that either affect the stock market, or people think might affect the stock market, and I write about those from the company’s perspective.

In terms of schooling experience, I generally describe it to people—especially people who aren’t familiar with the many forms that homeschooling can take, people who read the word literally and say, “Homeschooling: that means being schooled in a home, in your home.” That is one possibility, and for me, it started that way, as we were noting earlier—with my mom teaching us to read and things like that, just learning at home with mom. And then a small co-op started, with my mom and a neighbor, and a couple other families. So, one morning a week there would be a dozen kids or so learning literature from my mom, and then we would trek over the hill to the neighbors’ house and learn history and Latin, but all pretty casually. So, I was part of that co-op for a couple of years, and then we moved and we did everything at home again with my mom for several years. That co-op grew over time until it was almost like a small private two day a week school, and eventually two of my brothers and I took a couple of high school subjects there, and were in choir. So it was school in an interesting way, where your classmates are all the friends you grew up with, and your teachers are your friends’ parents. But even at its most structured, for my brothers and me this was only two classes, two mornings a week. So we had tons of time outside of that to learn at home, and we had the time and freedom to do other extra-curricular activities as well. And just to finish off the education trajectory real quick: the last couple of years of high school, I did part-time junior college and part-time online classes. From there, I applied as a freshman to UC Berkeley and spent three years there. I got my degree in three years instead of four, thanks to junior college, which I highly recommend to all.

JOHN:

I agree. I second that.

RUTHANNA:

Me too. 

JAMES:

Yes, on both affordability and, honestly, quality of education. Obviously, there are good professors and there are bad professors, that is true. At junior college that is true, and at any college. I was actually just back at my junior college earlier this week on another panel of this sort—of alumni of that junior college—and speaking to the honors program there about how junior college can benefit them. One of the biggest influences on my career was my economics professor at junior college. So, all told, it was a quality experience—and we can go into the non-academic side of that later if you like—but that's the rough educational path. So, there's a lot that's based around the freedom that homeschooling brings, but taking place in a variety of different settings, I suppose.

INTERVIEWER:

And you did speech and debate in high school?

JAMES:

Yes! Yes, I did.

INTERVIEWER:

You did a lot of that, and for people that don’t know about it, it’s very intensive, and your family was highly involved.

JAMES:

Yes. We were highly involved. Everyone in my family, except my oldest brother, participated in this speech and debate league, which was a Christian league. That was a primary high school academic experience, one that feeds directly and substantially into the job I have now. The skills I gained from that—in terms of researching, writing arguments, and speaking them—were critical. Now, of course, not everyone’s jobs are related to speech and debate, and that’s fine. There were also private and public school leagues, which I participated in now and again. For example, I debated the Tournament of Two at Stanford, a tournament of all the public school leagues, which was very nice of them to let us in, and all of that. So, yes, we did a ton of debate, and that was really formative and really useful, and it was also a big part of the—to use the term that is so common in these settings—the social interaction that everyone is very much concerned about and, I know, for valid reasons, I suppose. I’m very grateful to my parents for putting in the effort and the investment of time and resources that, I’m sure you know, is required to participate. It’s not small, and I understand people who say, “That’s too much, I prefer not to,” but the benefit that I got out of it was immense. But of course, my oldest brother didn’t participate, and he turned out just fine.

INTERVIEWER:

Yes, but that's his personality too. 

JAMES:

Sure. Well, I would have also said that about another brother of mine, and it turned out that his personality was more suited to it than you would have thought. So, having that interaction through the speech and debate league—those are the friends that I've kept with me most since that time—you know, not all of them, but a good portion—and I never felt that there was a want of interaction. I liked being at home with my family, and it helped that there were a lot of them, I suppose. If I were the only one, maybe that would be different. But there were always people around, always people to play with or hang out with or study with. And having the complement of this network of friends and acquaintances and people that you can compete with and learn from in that debate setting was tremendously formative and tremendously useful. So, yeah, I never felt like there was a dearth of connections in that way.

INTERVIEWER:

So, when we were talking on the phone, you said something really interesting about a conversation—actually several conversations—that you've had over the years with non-homeschoolers. Can you tell us about that?

JAMES:

Yes, I’ll tell you. So, this started, I think, soon after I went to junior college during my high school years, which just to tie in with something that you mentioned, was not a big leap academically. It was difficult in some ways, but was about on par with what I had been doing already at home. I was sort of worried about whether or not junior college would be much harder; it was not. However, junior college, during my high school years, was my first time interacting on a sustained basis with folks who had grown up in private or public school. And when they would find out that I was homeschooled, they would want to ask about that: “How was the experience?” “Did you have any friends?” And you’re thinking, “Yeah, you’re like the 8th person I’ve met total.” And of course, they would—as everyone does, especially in that age group—want to present what they came from as: “Oh, you don’t know what it’s like” or “Oh, you missed out.” But what really surprised me about a lot of these conversations is one of the first things that they would cite as something that you missed out on—by not being sent to school—and that you need, is the experience of being bullied and the experience of the cruelty of children. This happened, not tons, but at least half a dozen times over the years—different people citing bullying as something that is inevitable and would have happened to you in spades. They would say, “being bullied was very formative for me, and very important for me, and I’m very tough as a result of it.” So, we can have the discussion of whether you can learn from that in some way, or be tougher, or understand the way the world works, or understand that the world is very harsh... sure... maybe... But the fact that that received top billing as what public schooling has to offer—I was concerned. And I would usually point that out. I would say, “Why did that spring to mind first as this ‘perk’ or something?” 

So, of course, caveats include it’s not as if there is a total lack of bullying in other contexts—in private school or whatever—and not all public school kids are bullied. But that at least provided a pretty sharp contrast for me. Because you always wonder, “What am I missing?” And it’s natural to wonder—you know, we’d see the school bus go by our road every morning—so you wonder, because you only live the life that you have, and it’s natural to ponder alternatives, but that made me more secure in the choice, both at the time and since. 

I think that—at least to whatever extent kids will be kids—there are all sorts of behavioral things you have to sort out no matter what setting your children are in. But I think it’s important to be in an environment that you know well, that you trust, that you trust the people who are in it, and who are overseeing it, which I think is more likely to be the case in a homeschool or a homeschool co-op setting. I think that matters a lot, and you can quash or monitor for that sort of behavior much better. 

And I don’t know if I told this story to you as well, but a couple of times I ran into some not-very-nice children, in the eleven or twelve age range, and they were looking at other kids with a mean look, just trying to be mean to everyone around them, and I mainly thought it was funny, because I had never seen it. It was almost exotic because I didn’t have a mental picture of it. I had not seen kids behaving this way and I was thinking, “What is this curious sociological phenomenon that I’m observing here?” So, that was interesting as well. Now someone may look at that and say that I’m sheltered or “You need that experience.” But I think that’s a clear win in the homeschooling environment. Would you add to that?

JOHN:

Well, I think it’s also interesting too, in terms of bullying—I mean, it’s never good to be bullied, obviously, but it’s especially worse when you’re younger because you don’t really know how to process it. And if it happens when you’re older—I’m not saying it’s ever a good thing—but I think you have a better foundation in terms of who you are and how to stand against it. And I think to have that “oh, you’re sheltered” attitude... That’s a terrible outlook on it. It should be said, “No! Bullying is not supposed to be a part of the childhood experience. Bullying is not normal. It’s not a good thing. And if you’re not exposed to bullying, that’s not a bad thing; that’s a good thing.”

JAMES:

I would say maybe—the most charitable I could be—is that maybe if you see what it looks like, you can watch out for it, and you can try to combat it when you come across it—but I think that’s hard to track, anyway. I think you would struggle for that sort of insight regardless.

INTERVIEWER:

I think a lot of people now think that suffering damage as a kid is just a rite of passage—like you have to go through it. I mean, you see shows like 13 Reasons Why and you see a lot of this very intense stuff coming out of the culture with heavy bullying and very serious topics in high school. So the fact we’re talking about pretty minor examples of bullying here compared to what’s going on in the culture, I think says a lot about where the public school system is, and where those kids are with it, and where homeschoolers are with it.

I also want to add we had a similar comment made to us when I dropped my kids off at an Orthodox summer camp. A priest’s wife came up to me and told me, “Your kids really need to be here because they’re homeschooled… It’s important for them to learn the pecking order.” And I just thought, “Wow! I missed that in the Gospel. I don’t remember the pecking-order parable.” You know?

RUTHANNA:

Oh, my goodness!

JOHN:

Oh, wow!

INTERVIEWER:

Right?!... And you want to say, “How can you—a priest’s wife—think that way?!... You should know better!”

JAMES:

Yeah, I put that in the same category as—tell me if you think this is a bad analogy—but let’s say you have a high school internship or something and the manager wants to make the rules as strict as possible and the tasks as difficult as possible to prepare you for what your actual job might be.

JOHN:

No, I don’t think that’s in the same category as the bullying that goes on in schools because we’re talking about a business environment versus a school environment. I think it’s different because one situation is actually preparing you for the work environment, whereas in the school environment, bullying shouldn’t exist at all.

JAMES:

Right. No one needs the “normalization” that comes from bullying. Whereas, yes, you should probably normalize to things like “showing up on time to a job is important.”

INTERVIEWER:

I feel like it’s a lot like planting seeds. You know, when you plant a seed, and you’ve got little saplings, you actually go through this process of completely protecting it at first, right? You make a very safe environment, and you give it the ideal conditions. Then you don’t just stick it outside. You actually go through this process of hardening it off. You take it outside a little bit, then back inside, then back outside a little bit more. And I think it’s that way with kids. You can’t go from this completely sheltered bubble—that they actually need to develop properly—and then just throw them out there. You go through this hardening off, and when that happens is maybe very different for each kid and each family.

JOHN:

It certainly is different for each kid and family.

Oh! We have a question from the crowd.

AUDIENCE:

I have a question for both John and James.

(to John) You said you had to teach yourself a lot of times. How would you teach yourself? Would you read books? Or use the internet?

JOHN:

Internet? I still had dial-up until I was in college. We didn't really have the internet. Maybe that was a good thing. So, teaching myself? It basically came down to my mom would write up the schedule for work that I would do that week, and then I would end up following that schedule. So, it would be reading the book, reading the chapter in history, science, whatever it was, and then at the end, there is a section of questions that I would end up going through pertaining to the previous chapter that I just read. And so, I'd go through that and make sure I got all the questions correct. And then occasionally we would go through it together; I'd go through it with my mom to make sure I had absorbed the correct information. But it was mostly just making sure that I did the work, and that was left up to me. My mom would give me the schedule and say, “Alright. Did you do this?” and I'd say, “Yes.” She wasn't always there looking over my shoulder, which I think was a good thing. She was there to help whenever I needed it. If I had questions, she was always there for me. But most of the time, it was just me focusing on the work that had been assigned to me and making sure I got it done.

AUDIENCE:

(to James) So, you're the middle of seven? Were all of your siblings homeschooled as well?

JAMES:

Yes. All of us were homeschooled K-12. Our experiences of it were not identical - more or fewer co-op classes, junior college part-time during high school for some, after high school for others. My sisters did choir and art with the co-op, and all their other subjects at home even in high school. My older brother was not really part of the high school co-op either, maybe one class. So the seven of us had somewhat different homeschooling experiences, some things the same and some parts different.

AUDIENCE:

(to James): Would you say that everybody—if you could speak for your siblings—Did they all enjoy homeschooling?

JAMES:

If there were conflicts about that, they didn’t reach me. I’m not going to portray it as perpetual harmony all day every day, certainly. But not homeschooling was an option that we never really explored, I think because there was not a demand for it. So, I think that probably could answer your question, the fact that us kids were not seeking different educational paths.

INTERVIEWER:

So, James, would you consider homeschooling your own kids if you had the theoretical wife who agreed?

JAMES:

Well, Yes, OK... So, let me talk about this. It’s hard for me to answer that question because that would be the result of a conversation with a spouse that I don’t have. Right? But I would frame it in similar terms as John.

INTERVIEWER:

Assuming that your wife would agree, would you consider it?

JAMES:

Well, yes!—not only consider—That would be my preference! What I would say is that certainly, when the children are younger, I see no reason to be in a formal educational setting. I think the conversation becomes more interesting when you get into the ten, twelve, fourteen age range, depending on what options are available, whether that’s a co-op or a small something-that-you-trust. Sure. That would be a conversation I’d be willing to have. So, it sort of changes with age, but the default is: Yes, homeschool. And see how that goes. If it’s going well, there’s no compelling reason to divert from it. So, short answer: Yes. Strong Yes.

Interviewer:

I love how analytical you are. It took me a while to figure it out. You know—I thought you’d just say ‘yes’ or ‘no’—But I realize there’s a lot of qualifiers here, which is fine, totally fine.

James:

Yes. There will always be qualifiers.

Interviewer:

Well, thank you.

James:

Certainly!

3rd Panelist: Ruthanna, a medical doctor from Wisconsin

Interviewer:

Alright, Ruthanna. Why don't you tell us about yourself?

Ruthanna:

I'm Ruthanna. I'm the second of six children, and we were homeschooled. I was in 5th grade when we started, so my oldest brother started homeschooling in 7th grade, and then my two youngest brothers never went to school. They were homeschooled for the whole time. So, I was homeschooled up until the end of high school. Then I also went to community college, got a nursing degree, started working as a nurse, and then decided that I actually wanted to be a doctor, so I went back to medical school. Now I work as a doctor in Wisconsin.

Interviewer:

And you're a midwife, too, I've heard rumored?

Ruthanna:

Yeah, so, when I went to nursing school, I thought I wanted to be a midwife, and that's why I went to nursing school. I was apprenticing with a midwife on the side while I was in college, but I kind of got tired of being on call all the time. So, I decided to ditch that, but I did that for a couple of years with a midwife. Yeah, it was a lot of fun, but there are a lot of tough parts about the lifestyle that I wasn't interested in. I ended up going to medical school and being an internal medicine doctor, so I left the whole birth world. Now I just work with adults, but that is more interesting to me. It's more variety, and people come in sicker, as opposed to most women in labor are going to be fine whether you're there or not. I feel like being an internist is a little more challenging, and so I really like it. I love my job. It's a lot of fun. You meet some crazy people, which makes it interesting. The medicine gets kind of monotonous sometimes, but the personalities are so funny. So, anyway, the lifestyle is really good because you work for a hospital, so it’s shift work. And a lot of people in my group work part-time—I work part-time—just because people don't really want to work that much, and you can make a good living just on a part-time schedule. So, I do a lot of volunteer stuff on the side. It's a great job.

Interviewer:

Tell us about your homeschool experience. What did it look like for your family?

Ruthanna:

When I started homeschooling, I lived in California, and there we had a co-op like you were saying. My mom did all of the basic subjects at home, and then we did extra-curricular stuff through the co-op. It was like a charter school, and that's how we got to interact with other kids. Then when I was 14, we moved to Arizona, which had a lot less support for homeschooling in terms of co-ops and extra activities, so then we were more isolated. We had friends through church that we would hang out with, but there wasn't as much in the way of classes with other homeschool kids. So, I remember my mom putting in more of an effort to drive us to our friends' houses and coordinate stuff. Then when I was 16, I started community college, so there wasn't that much of a gap there. But my two little brothers—they've lived in Arizona almost their entire lives, and they did sports through the public school. My younger brother played soccer for four years for the varsity team. He was the only one of us that didn't want to graduate high school early because he said, "No, I want to play soccer for four years." So, he did. And he was the captain actually; they went to state his last year. He really liked that. So, there's a lot of options—if you look into it—for homeschool kids. Then, we all—well, most of us—started community college pretty young, just because we could work at our own pace and graduate from high school early.

Interviewer:

Did you find the work at the community college challenging compared to what you had been doing at home?

Ruthanna:

No. Not at all. I agree with what John was saying about how in homeschooling, you learn how to learn, and that makes it so much easier in college because no one is hand-feeding you in college. So, college is very similar to homeschooling.

John:

Yes!

James:

Yes! And if we want to talk about culture shock transitioning into college, this is something that a lot of college students describe as the biggest shock for them: “I’m on my own”...

John:

Yep. “I’m on my own… I don’t know what to do”...

Ruthanna:

They complain, “How am I going to figure it out?”... Well, we already knew how to figure it out because we did that as homeschoolers, so it was fine.

John:

Exactly!

Ruthanna:

And the socialization part, I did not find that difficult. At the community college, there is a very wide range of people going, a lot of people are going because they want to get a job. It’s not like the traditional four-year university where there’s a lot of partying, at least in my experience. I got that in medical school, but at community college, everyone was focused on getting their degree, and that’s what I was there for. And there were a lot of different ages of people going. I remember I had a study group with two other women: one was a single mom in her late-twenties, and the other one was in her forties. And the three of us—I don’t know why—but we just connected, and we formed a study group, and I felt very comfortable interacting with people of all different ages because that’s what I had done my whole life. So, it was not difficult.

Interviewer:

You made an interesting comment on the phone that you found the switch to medical school a bigger transition than the transition from homeschool to community college.

Ruthanna:

Yes. So, medical school was more of a traditional college experience because everyone was my age, and there were a lot of parties and drinking, and so I had to figure it out. I remember I went to a couple of parties because that’s what everyone was doing, but I was like, “This is not really my scene.” Then I found my group that I actually liked to hang out with, as opposed to the cool, popular kids. I just didn’t enjoy that scene. So, I just had to figure it out, what I liked, and what was my area. But you find it; you find people you connect with anywhere.

Interviewer:

When I asked you about the socialization question that we always like to ask people, your response was interesting. You said you were more of an introverted kid, so you felt like homeschooling really worked for you.

Ruthanna:

Yes. So, I remember my mom—when we lived in Arizona, and we had less community there for homeschooling support—I remember her making more of an effort to make sure that we had friends, and I just honestly wasn’t really interested. I just wanted to do my own thing. But my younger sister was way more social, so she had way more friends. But, for me, I just didn’t really need that. And even when I was in school, I had my two or three close friends, but I was never someone who wanted to go to a huge gathering of people that I didn’t know. I didn’t find that fun. So, I felt like I had the ability to do that, and I wasn’t forced to be in a situation where I had to be an extrovert. And even now, I mean, obviously, I interact with people all day at work, and that’s fine, but then I need my alone time to recharge. Now that I’m OK with that—because I’m old enough that I don’t care how it appears to other people—I can say, “this is what my personality is like, and this is what I need.” But I was never pushed to be more outgoing as a kid either, which was nice.

Interviewer:

We really set the standard for how much socializing a kid gets by what it looks like to be an extrovert. That’s really what’s considered ‘normal’—maybe because we’re all loud and so we get our way—but it’s really unfair to all those introverted kids.

Ruthanna:

Yes. And with homeschooling, the extroverted kids in our family didn’t suffer. They had plenty of opportunities to do stuff, like my younger brother who played on a soccer team for four years. But another brother tried it for a year and he actually ended up getting bullied on the high school soccer team, and he had no interest, after that, in doing it again, and he never did. So, there was that variability. So, those of us in our family that wanted it could do it, and the ones that didn’t, didn’t. And we’re all successful; we all have jobs, and we’re happy, so it didn’t cause problems.

Interviewer:

So, again, a lot of teens fall away from their faith when they leave home. What steps did you take to stay active in your faith? How did that go for you?

Ruthanna:

I think for me, it wasn’t a given that I would just do everything that my family had done. When I moved out, I was in medical school, and I think I was 21. I felt like, “OK, now I’ve got to figure out what I believe versus what I’ve been told to believe my whole life.” And I did go through a few years where I was thinking, “OK, what am I going to keep? And what maybe is the external stuff?” because my family is pretty strict. We wore skirts all the time, we didn’t have a TV, we didn’t go to movies—and when I got older, I wanted to be a little more balanced than that, but I didn’t want to leave everything. So, I had to figure out what is my Orthodoxy going to look like? And everyone has to figure that out as they’re growing up. But for me, the reason why I never left the church is because I had so many examples—like my parents, and other relatives, and my spiritual father—people who lived Orthodoxy, and I knew what they had was real. I could never say that what they had wasn’t anything. You know, I remember thinking to myself, “If I ever left the church, I’d be saying that what they’re doing is crazy, and that’s not true.” I knew I’d be lying to myself if I said that. So, I could never give up on it. But I think that your faith is constantly being challenged just by life, and it’s never over. There are still periods of time in my life that I have doubts, but I don’t think I’d ever be able to leave because I grew up with so many strong examples of faith. I don’t want to ever give that part up. But it is a lot more example that keeps you, as opposed to people telling you things, because people can talk, but you see people’s relationship with God, and that is way more meaningful as a kid than anything else.

Interviewer:

You mentioned that you grew up with what some people would consider strict rules, but also an incredible amount of love. I knew your parents—just a little tiny bit—but even what I remember of them is incredibly loving.

Ruthanna:

Yes. So, I remember my mom worrying about all of these things, and I remember overhearing her talk to my dad about should we do this, or should we do that, and what’s going to be the best for this kid, or that kid. I could hear her internal struggle, wanting to do the best thing for us. And I remember looking back on that later, thinking, “Oh, my goodness, she loved us so much that she wanted to do everything perfectly for us”—and that covered so many things. I mean, later, when I had thoughts like, “I didn’t like that my mom did X, Y, Z”—but I knew that my mom did that because she loved me so much, and she was trying her hardest—that just shines through everything. And the fact that my mom was home with us all the time, we just saw her love all the time. She was constantly just doing whatever she could for us, and I think as a kid—going back to what you’re talking about: why didn’t I fall away from my faith?—I think that because I had that example of unconditional love from my parents, I never, ever doubted God’s love for me. And that’s not the case for every kid. I mean, I have friends now that grew up in really broken homes, and they’ll tell me, “I don’t feel God’s love” and “I have doubts that God loves me.” And I think, “Wow! I’ve never doubted that.” I’ve doubted other things, but I’ve never, ever, ever doubted that God loves me, because I know what it’s like to be loved unconditionally by my parents, and especially my mom, because she was there all the time. And I think that’s the biggest gift, maybe beyond anything else—beyond homeschooling, or whatever else you give your kid—the fact that you love them, you’re giving them so much of a benefit beyond most of the kids in the world, and that is just incredibly important. I just read a study the other day about childhood trauma and how that affects the brain, and creates issues as an adult—bullying is one example, but just not feeling love as a child—just sets an adult up for failure, and it’s something they’re constantly going to have to struggle against their whole adult life because they didn’t have that foundation as a child. So, just having that stable loving home as a kid is such a gift, and we just take it for granted, but there are so many kids that don’t have it.

John:

Yes, it’s true!

James:

Yes! That's all fantastic! I just want to echo, or second, ALL that she just said.

Interviewer:

Yes, I know a lot of people in my generation who didn't grow up in loving homes, and I think we do struggle with knowing that God loves us. There are all of these verses about how God is your Father, and He's this loving Father—you know, I love my dad, he's passed away now, but it wasn't a loving relationship—so these verses are just words that are empty when you have not seen an example. So, it's really an incredible gift to feel loved unconditionally. I totally agree.

Ruthanna:

Yes. Even today, when I was in Vespers, and I was seeing all these moms with their babies. I see so many dysfunctional families at work. I mean, I see people with kids, and they’re just pushed aside, as something annoying, all the time—and I understand you’re going to get annoyed with your kid every so often; that’s normal—but just constantly no love, no affection. And then I saw all these kids in church today that were just showered with love, and I thought, “These parents don’t even realize the gift they’re giving their kids; they just have no idea how important it is what they’re doing.” All the other stuff is secondary. That is what is going to make your child into a normal adult, and it’s just going to give them this foundation of stable, mentally healthy brain, that then, obviously they’re going to be bullied as an adult and have to deal with that stuff, but they’re going to have this foundation of normalcy, and they’re going to be able to handle it. Yes, it’s incredibly important, I think.

Interviewer:

I hope I don’t embarrass you, but I’m going to share this story about your dad. I hope I don’t embarrass your dad. I think I told you, we used to go to the same church over twenty years ago. You were a little girl. And I have this memory of walking out of Liturgy one Sunday morning, and as you know, most adults make a b-line for the coffee, and then the kids run off and play, while the adults gossip, talk, catch up, or whatever they do at coffee hour. And I looked up, and your dad was in the parking lot with all six kids, chasing you guys, and calling to you all, “I’m going to get you,” and all of you little kids were just giggling and laughing. And I just thought to myself, over here you’ve got all the adults in the parish just chatting away doing what they want to do and not paying any attention to their children, and then over here was your dad who seemed to have this sense that he needed to be attentive to his children, even if maybe he’d rather go be with adults. You guys seemed to be his focus.

Ruthanna:

Yes, and we definitely felt like that as kids. I mean, my parents never went on a date night, ever. I don't have one memory of them leaving us. And I remember people saying, “Why don't you guys leave your kids with a babysitter?" and that being such a foreign concept to them because they just wanted to hang out with us. As a kid, I thought, "Yes, my parents enjoy being around me; that's normal." But it's not normal.

John:

Yes. I would second that. We have the same thing. I don't think my parents ever went on a date night. They never left us with a babysitter.

Ruthanna:

We didn't have babysitters, but I baby-sat. I loved it. I remember I taught my little brother how to read—I'm ten years older than he—and I have so many good memories of that. It's like what you were saying about you wouldn't want to send them anywhere to school when they are little—I feel the same way because that's the fun age. That's when you get to see them learn, and I wouldn't want to miss that.

John:

You get to see them develop, and they learn and develop so quickly at that age.

Ruthanna:

Yes! I wouldn’t want to miss out on that with my kids.

Interviewer:

But it's a real contrast because you can go on Facebook now and there are all these scary mom posts, and they're meant to be funny and light-hearted—but one is a lady pushing her cart through the store buying vodka and candy and anything that the teacher wants because that lady is taking her kids all day and you do whatever it takes to keep her happy because she is offering this wonderful service because you can't stand your kids. That's really what it comes down to. It's so common, people don't even realize it, but that's a really bad way to think about your kids.

James:

Yeah, that they are something that you are trying to avoid or shunt off on someone else.

John:

That’s not parenting.

Interviewer:

Imagine being a kid and hearing that!

James:

This just speaks to a fundamentally different approach to how you see your children, and very likely, therefore, by extension, how they see you. I mean, kids don’t see everything, but I think they see the important things.

Ruthanna:

And you know as a kid if your parent really wants to be around you or not. You know that.

John:

Yes. You have a sense of whether or not your parents want you around.

James:

Yes! That’s got to be among the top priorities, as a child, to have that recognized, and know that you’re loved by your parents. And so as a child, you’re monitoring for that very, very closely, probably all the time.

Ruthanna:

I know! Yes, that’s true!

James:

So, yes, you’ll notice if your parents don’t really want to have you around.

Interviewer:

So, the number one thing that parents should worry about is not what science curriculum to use in high school—even though, actually, you did want to mention that, right, Ruthanna?—but I meant curriculum or getting to a good school is not the number one concern, but showing love to the kids? Is that the consensus here?

James:

And I’m certainly not saying that you can’t do that unless you homeschool, but I think that homeschooling is a fantastic venue in which you can manifest that care and love for your children.

Interviewer:

Because it takes time to build a relationship.

James:

Yes! Always! Still now.

Ruthanna:

Yes.

John:

Yes. And it’s hard to build a relationship with your kids when the first thing they have to do when they get home from school is homework, and the mom has to make dinner, and the dad wants to relax in front of the TV or the computer when he gets home from work as is stereotypical for American families. If they do have any interaction together, it’s: IF they eat dinner together, and then between the kids finishing homework and going to bed. School leaves very little time for interaction between the children and the parents, very little time for building relationships.

James:

Yes, parents are too busy, and kids are increasingly so.

Can I tell a quick anecdote about the family dinner thing? My mom usually tells this; maybe she already did in one of her talks. This ties back into: Did you recognize what your parents were sacrificing or the great job they were doing at the time? And we noted that that’s sort of hard to tell. I had rough sense of it because of this very common occurrence: If we’d be in an airport or something, or with people who didn’t know us, people would say, “Are ALL of these your children?!” “Yes, they are,” and they’d say, “Wow! Amazing! How do you do that?” And I wouldn’t really grasp what was going on, as if this was some sort of feat. But anyway, this was another one of those episodes. We got a lot of compliments on airplanes for being very well-mannered children; stewardess loved us. So, as I recall, someone was asking my mom, “How are these children so well-behaved?”—which just for the record was just our ‘on the plane manners’…

Ruthanna:

Exactly!

John:

“You should see us at home!”

James:

Yes, that’s what my mom would say. And so this lady was asking, “How do you do it? What is your trick?” and my mom is saying, “Who knows” and contemplating whether to bring up homeschooling, and then the lady says, “I bet I know what it is! Do you guys eat dinner together?” and my mom says, “umm… yes...”

John:

“Would we not eat dinner together?”

James:

“Is that an option?”

But as you’ve noted here, that is not necessarily the norm. Of course, there is the importance of spending a nice hour in the evening together, but I think there’s a greater significance to it than that—the way that it happens, what it says about the way you have structured your home and your life and your household, and the way that you and your children interact and get along with each other—I think it speaks to something greater. But I don’t know that that speaks to homeschooling precisely.

John:

I think it does. You’re making it a point to say “This matters,” “Being together matters,” and I think that goes right along with the whole homeschooling ethos, where families believe that it’s important to be together, to learn together, and for the children’s primary role models to be the parents and those within the family. My parents and my three older sisters were definitely my role models, so I think it goes along right with that... and eating dinner together almost becomes a by-product of that family interaction. I think when you have that foundation of being together, the children don’t have this mindset of: “Oh my gosh, I don’t want to be with my family, I’d rather be with my friends from school than with my family”... and so by having that foundation of family, having dinner together doesn’t become a chore.

Interviewer:

So, Ruthanna, you actually had some curriculum input that you wanted to give?

Ruthanna:

Yes. So, my mom picked a different curriculum for each subject, because she liked certain curricula for different subjects. But I really liked our science curriculum. We did Apologia Science, and I really liked that. Apologia has two years of biology, two years of chemistry, and two years of physics for high school, so obviously you can’t do all of that, but I did the second year of Chemistry, and that is an AP course, so I tested out of two semesters of college chemistry, which was really nice. That was really rigorous, but it was an easy program to do on your own, which you have to do as a homeschooler. My mom would help with questions, but most of it was self-directed learning, and it was very easy to do self-directed learning with that curriculum. So, I definitely recommend the Apologia curriculum for science. I even went back and studied my Apologia textbooks before I took the MCAT, which is the medical school entrance exam, and it was a really, really good review. So, I think Apologia is a very good science curriculum.

Interviewer:

So, Ruthanna, would you consider homeschooling your own kids?

Ruthanna:

Yes, I think so. We’ll see. John and James were so gung-ho yes, but I’m gung-ho yes for the right kid. But if I had a kid that wanted to go to school, I would let them go to school because I wouldn’t want them to feel like they were missing out, but I never wanted to go to school. I remember when we were younger we visited an Orthodox school. I was in 8th grade, and we stayed at the school for the whole day, and I was thinking, “Why would I ever want to go to this school?! The work is dragged out for seven hours when I could do the same thing at home in just a few hours... This is so boring; I hate this... I just want to be at home where I can get my work done and then do what I want to do.” So, I never had any desire to be at school. For me, homeschooling was definitely a better path, just because I was a really motivated kid and I didn’t want to waste time. And I think that all of my siblings liked homeschooling. So, I guess maybe it’s good for the vast majority of kids. But for certain kids it might not be the best option. I think I would probably end up homeschooling my own kids because that would be the default, but I could see a situation where maybe it wouldn’t be the right choice for that kid or that year or whatever.

John:

I think that homeschooling families need to make it a point to see the benefits of homeschooling and help your own children understand these benefits. That way when other kids come up to you and act like you’re missing out, you can just make it a point to share with those other kids, “We can do this and that, and it’s still considered to be school,” and if they could see that what ‘school’ looks like for a homeschooler, I don’t think there would be any kids in their right mind that would not want to do that.

Ruthanna:

Some homeschool kids kind of romanticize school and say, “Oh, they get to go to school” because other kids are telling them, “Don’t you think it would be more fun to go to school?... because you get to do X, Y, Z?”

John:

When they would do that to me, I would list off ten times more things that I get to do as a homeschooler. It’s important for homeschool parents to give their kids confidence in what they have. When kids would tell me I was missing out by not being at school, I’d say, “Well, I get to do this,” and they’d say, “You get to do that?!” and I’d be like, “Yeah! What do you guys get to do that compares to that?”

Audience:

Such as what?

John:

Well, traveling was a huge thing. We’d travel the country. We’d go to National Parks in the off-season when there’s no one there. We’d go to my aunt’s farm—we’d do chores on the farm, and those were very ‘character-building’ exercises. And as homeschoolers in New York, we didn’t have a reason to take off for “snow-days” like the public-schoolers when the bus can’t get to them, so instead, we would take days off whenever it was really beautiful outside. There were days that we would just do an hour of school and then just go outside to play simply because it was such a beautiful day. It was so much fun! And then we would have “cousin days” when our cousins would come over for a visit, we’d get to skip for the day and just play outside with the cousins. But of course, when that would happen, we’d say, “OK, we didn’t do school today, so we’ll ‘catch up’ tomorrow.” So there was always that flexibility. And I think that, if anything, the flexibility of having a choice of when to do things is a huge advantage of homeschooling. I think that kids in public or private school—if they had a taste of that—they’d say, “I don’t want to go back! Are you kidding me?!”

Ruthanna:

Yes. I agree.

John:

The flexibility is just such a huge advantage.

James:

OK, so I want to build on both of those things consecutively. So first—in the choice whether to homeschool or not—it’s maybe worth noting that John and I, as the ones more adamant or enthusiastic, in all probability, we would not be the ones doing it.  

John:

Well, if my wife didn’t want to do the homeschooling, I would do it. I would make a way to do it. I would find a way.

JamES:

Agreed! But this is all so much hypothesizing.

John:

I’m serious. I will find a way to make it happen!

James:

I know, I know. So, the other thing—the flexibility in homeschooling—is key. For most days, our program was that you knew what your assignments were for that day, you do your work, and then you’re free to do what you want with the rest of your day. Most days, I’d be done with school by noon or 1 p.m.

John:

Yep. Same for me.

Ruthanna:

Yes, me too.

JAMES:

And then I could do the things I wanted to do for the rest of the day. And what that often meant—just because I cared a ton about sports—was waiting until my brothers were done with their work so that we could play. And since I was the youngest of my brothers, that meant that I had less work, so I was always done first, and I could practice beforehand. Of course, I had gradually less free time as I moved into the high school years, but again, particularly in the early years, I spent most of my days outside. I don't like being in a building even now. I work in an office, but I don't like being in an office—everyone gripes about that—but consider that kids in most schooling environments are in a building of some sort for most of the day…

JOHN:

For their entire life!

JAMES:

Which is so sad!

RUTHANNA:

Yes!

James:

Let that wait until that is forced upon you. Don’t spend your life in a building until you absolutely have to. Even in college—because I was used to doing my work outside unless absolutely necessary—I never went to libraries in college. I would either be in my house where I could play my music and have a snack, or out on the porch or out on the lawn. I only went to the library if there was a study group and that is where people had decided to go. And I’m still, even now, trying to getting used to being in a building—It’s too bad—at least I’m near a window. But that is so critical for children. I think it is such a tragedy if you are at the age when you can most appreciate being outdoors, and you are required to be inside. And then when you go home from school, after being inside all day, you have to stay inside for the rest of the day because you have tons of homework. As opposed to: “Oh look, I’m done here at one o’clock in the afternoon!” and go play outside the rest of the day.

John:

Yes! I agree! And I had the same experience. You get up, you get your work done, and when you’re done, you’re done. The way that it actually happened for us is that my twin sisters would get up really early and fight over the math textbook. They would get up at 6 o’clock and try to get their math done as early as possible.

Ruthanna:

That's what I did!

James:

Do you hear that?! Kids saying, “I want to do math!”

John:

No, it’s not that! It’s not that they loved math, but they just wanted to get it done, so they’d fight over who got to use the textbook first each morning. It worked out really well for us, because my mom would get up early with them and help them with their math, and then by the time I got up, she could help me. So, I got to sleep in, which is great—I still love sleeping in—and by the time she finished helping them with math, she could help me, and they were off doing other work they could do by themselves. But it was a similar thing as you said: You get up, you get your work done, and you could be done by noon if you just sat down and did it.

James:

So much time is wasted sitting in a classroom all day!

John:

Your comment about being in a building all day made me think about how in Denmark or Norway, or one of the northern European countries, they have one of the best school systems in the world. When asked about it, they say, “We do everything opposite that the U.S. does. We don’t give homework. We have a long recess for kids to run around outside. And we encourage them to ask questions.”

Interviewer:

Yes. They actually let them go cross country skiing for recess without the teacher. They just send them out, and the whole class goes. 

John:

That’s amazing! It’s incredible. And they made a comment about why this is so effective. They said that they start asking questions about things they’re interested in. And when they start asking questions about things they’re interested in, they’ll learn it more effectively, because they’re interested and they want to learn. As they spend time in the natural world, they ask, “What is this bug?” “What is this tree?” Then this develops into a thirst for knowledge, and so when you start going into the other subjects, you have become more inquisitive and have developed a desire to know more. And I think this is also a strength of homeschooling.

James:

Homeschooling fosters that thirst for knowledge.

John:

Yes! Homeschooling fosters that thirst for knowledge. I think back to those days when my mom would say, “Yes, we’ll just go outside and play today.” I think now, “That’s what she was doing!” Norway stole her idea!

James:

I think this session wouldn’t be complete without me inserting some Calvin and Hobbes. So a quote from there: “It’s only work if someone makes you do it.” So, of course we have to do some assigned schoolwork, blah, blah, blah... but a lot of our true education is fueled by the things that you are doing that are interesting to you, that would be work if someone was making you do it, but they are the fruit of your own search, the fruit of your own pursuit of knowledge of what you find interesting. So for me, free time was either sports or reading. I very much like to read. And if I had been told, “OK, James, here’s a bookshelf full of books. I expect you to have this all read the end of the semester with periodic essays,” that would be drudgery. But if it’s just there, available to read—and you’ve been raised in an environment of reading—you will read all the books on that shelf.

And getting back to our discussion on habits: You recognize inquiry and reading as the mode in which you learn, of seeking out things that intrigue you and interest you and building your knowledge of those things—while at the same time slogging through the things that are not interesting but that you have to do anyway because that’s a side of the coin as well. But the more of your education that is built on your prerogatives and what you are interested in, the better. And I think that homeschooling is miles ahead in that regard.

John:

I think there’s another cartoon that applies here. It depicts a man behind a desk, and he’s talking about standardized testing. In front of the desk there are various types of animals: there’s an elephant, a penguin, a monkey, a bird, and a goldfish in a bowl. And the man says, “To make things fair, you’re all going to take the same test. And the test is to climb that tree.” And you’re looking at these animals, and you know that’s not an appropriate test. But that’s conventional schooling in a nutshell. It doesn’t cater to the individual; it caters to the system. As a homeschooler, you have the ability to really form the education the way you need it to be, the way it should be for you, and for each of your individual children.

Ruthanna:

Yes. That’s true.

John:

You know how you said your choice to homeschool or send a child to school would depend on the needs of the kid, but in that situation, I would say that homeschooling would be the best thing you could do because homeschooling can be tailored to the needs of the child. If you have two different students who are going through the same class and they learn things differently, they’re not going to absorb the same information, and in a sense that could be wasted time spent in a room if that class is not delivering the information in a way that the child absorbs it. But if you put them in a situation, that homeschooling can provide—where the education can be tailored to the needs of that child and can be given in a way that child can absorb it, and made interesting for that child—that can open up a whole new avenue of learning for that child. It’s such a flexible tool; it doesn’t pigeon-hole you into something that doesn’t benefit you, and it doesn’t ostracize you just because you don’t learn math the way that others learn it. I don’t care what anyone says, but a parent is going to care about their child’s education far more than any teacher will.

Interviewer:

If you have good parents.

John:

Yeah, but if your parents are going to homeschool you, odds are they care a lot about you.

James:

Yes, I think that’s useful to point out. These are fruits of homeschooling reasonably well executed or very well executed. This is not to say, it’s simply done or that it’s without difficulties, or that it’s guaranteed to go perfectly. But, the opportunities that homeschooling provides are not matched by the alternatives.

Audience:

How far did your parents go with their educations?

James:

Both of my parents have a master’s in English.

John:

My dad has an associate’s degree in business, and my mom has a bachelor’s in English. My dad did our math with us, he’s really good at math.

Ruthanna:

My mom has a bachelor’s, and my dad has a Ph.D. My dad did some of the more advanced math with us in high school, but other than that my mother did everything for our schooling.

Audience:

Do you feel that because your parents were highly educated, this made a difference in the education you received at home?

Ruthanna:

I think there was an expectation in my family that we would all have a career. I can remember my mom saying, “Even if you’re a woman and you’re going to get married, you’re still going to need something that you can do as a job if something were to happen.” So, that was an expectation.

John:

My parents definitely commented on it. They would say, “It’s good to get a degree,” but the comment was never about making money. It was always about making sure you love what you do, and making sure you enjoy doing it.

James:

I’m sorry, your question was what? Could you re-state it? It was whether our parents being well educated made a significant difference?

Audience:

Yes. Do you think that because they had an education themselves, that this is what made them adequate at homeschooling?

John:

Adequate at teaching?… Well, my mom—having a degree in English—was well equipped to teach us how to write essays, so she helped us with that. But my dad helped us with the math, and he wished he had gone for a degree. He had an associate’s degree but wished he had gone back for a bachelor’s, and that was one of the points he would make with us. He would say, “I want you to go for a degree.” Not in a forcing way—he was never forcing us—but just really encouraging us to do it because he saw the benefit of it.

James:

My parents both have a master’s in English. Math was the one subject that we all taught to ourselves. So I would characterize myself as somewhat weaker in that regard. It weirds me out that I now work in finance. It seems like that shouldn’t have happened… Don’t forward this to my boss. (laughter) But my three other brothers also all have careers now that are heavily mathematics-oriented. One is an engineer, one brother minored in mathematics, another brother is into data and data analysis—yet our homeschooling for math was just figuring it out on our own with the help of books and cds. My mom just checked our work.

So in addressing your original question, I think what’s underlying it is actually a different question: “If you don’t have that sort of degree or education, then is homeschool not as good of an option for you?” Is that what you’re asking? So, to answer that, I definitely think that my parents being generally strong in the English department was important for my education—and also the group that they were in since a lot of my early education was my parents and their friend group who would then be the teachers of this co-op that we were in, and they were all very educated in the fields that they were teaching—so absolutely that helped. I’m very fortunate to have known—by way of my parents—all of these very intelligent, talented, well-informed educators. But I don’t know if I could say that “just an associates degree” would preclude homeschooling as a possibility, given that so much of homeschooling is self-orchestrated learning.

Ruthanna:

Yes, I agree. It’s all self-taught by the time you’re in high school. And how many college graduates even remember their senior high school math? You learn it on your own. By the time you’re twelve years old, you’re able to read a chapter in a math book and do the problems by yourself. I remember my mom had a friend who was an English major, and she would have her grade our essays sometimes just to make sure that my mom wasn’t missing anything, but honestly, she wasn’t. Because we learned how to write an essay, and we wrote it, and it wasn’t that hard.

Interviewer:

And I would add that I actually know many people who only have a high school diploma and who have not only successfully homeschooled, but the kids have actually gone on to good colleges and done well. And I’ll make a confession. I’m actually a high school drop-out. And my daughter was doing Calculus 3 and Physics 2 at age 18 on a college campus, and she was the student-teacher in her college physics class. So, I’m a great example of someone who did not continue their education—I dropped out in April of my senior year of high school, just for the record—but still taught my children. Your kids at some point really do take over their education, and if you encourage them in that regard, the sky is the limit.